Follow by Email

Search This Blog

Pageviews past week

Wednesday, November 23, 2011

Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal (Part 2) by Chuck McGlawn

An unsigned e-mail, “Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal”, has been floating around the internet for a few years. It is a metaphor for all the legal families and all he illegal families in the US. The Message, Illegal Immigration hurts YOU and YOUR FAMILY.

The e-mail starts with: You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal". Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California.

The premise: Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted. Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".

This premise is followed by comparisons in the results that lead the reader to the conclusion that indeed, Illegal Immigration hurts YOU and YOUR FAMILY.

However, Logic teaches that if your “premise” is correct, and your logic is correct your conclusions will be correct.  However if your “premise” is correct, and your logic is incorrect your conclusions will be incorrect. Surprisingly if your “premise” is incorrect, and your logic is incorrect, you do not know if your conclusions are incorrect or not. Lastly, if your “premise” is INCORRECT, and your logic is correct your conclusions will be INCORRECT

In Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal the premise is INCORRECT, it states that Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table."

That is not true, says Mark Kirkorian, the Executive Director of the Center for Immigration Studies [This is an organization that not only
vigorously opposes illegal immigration they oppose the high level of legal immigration. On their web site they admit that, “The data collected by the Center during the past quarter-century has led many of our researchers to conclude that current, high levels of immigration are making it harder to achieve such important national objectives as better public schools, a cleaner environment, homeland security, and a living wage for every native-born and immigrant worker.”]

During a debate at the Cato Institute Kikorian said, “Most illegal immigrants work ON THE BOOKS (Emphasis added) They’ve given a fake or a stolen Social Security number…” This means they are paying the same Income Taxes that Joe Legal pays, with no hope of getting a refund check if they overpay. This also means that they are paying the same Social Security Taxes as Joe Legal. (Please remember whatever is taken out of Jose Illegal’s pay is matched by their employer, and sent to the Federal Government.) Jose Illegal does this with no hope of ever collecting any social security money. It means that their Social Security payment goes to the government, and the government uses the money to cover current Social Security checks (maybe yours).

You can see the debate at http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=7334. I invite you to watch the entire debate, but you can hear the above quote soon after the 45 min. mark.

So when the E-Mail says, “Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.

Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.0 0 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.

That is not true Mark Kirkorian, the Executive Director of the Center for Immigration Studies says, “Most illegal immigrants work ON THE BOOKS (Emphasis added)

Jose Illegal may earn less but working ON THE BOOKS he is subject to the same laws as Joe Legal.

Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.

Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.

That is not true Mark Kirkorian, the Executive Director of the Center for Immigration Studies says, “Most illegal immigrants work ON THE BOOKS (Emphasis added)

There are laws covering mandatory group coverage for full time workers if the company employees a certain number of employees. The law covers everyone. However, since Jose Illegal has given an invalid or stolen Social Security number in order to work on the books, his vital medical history is being stored under someone else’s name. So, if the US ever adopts a realistic guest worker program Jose Illegal will not have the benefit of a medical history when receiving future medical services.


Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has 9,631 .00.

Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has $ 31,200.00.

That is not true Mark Kirkorian, the Executive Director of the Center for Immigration Studies says, “Most illegal immigrants work ON THE BOOKS (Emphasis added)

If you do not see by now that the author of the e-mail has an agenda. STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. He may truly believe immigration is destructive, but he is wrong. Almost all economists agree that immigration, both legal and illegal provide a NET GAIN to the US.

Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc..

Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month..

This statement reveals the authors agenda. Remember the premise Jose Illegal’s parents, wife and kids are here in the US "consuming all of our free goodies", who does he have in his homeland to whom is he sending money???




I am not saying that no one is hurt by illegal immigration. It is bound to happen. I will say this when government involves itself in immigration control you will have distortions that are the source of the destructiveness.





Editors Note: All are invited to comment on what I have said in this article which goes out under my name. I can verify what I say. I cannot verify what you think I said.

25 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mr. McGlawn said:

"This means they are paying the same Income Taxes that Joe Legal pays, with no hope of getting a refund check if they overpay. This also means that they are paying the same Social Security Taxes as Joe Legal"

This is an innaccurate statement. The IRS allows illegals to obtain ITIN numbers which allows them to file tax returns and even gain eligibility for child tax credits. It is been publicized widely that in 2007 $2.4B in child tax credits were paid to ITIN account holders, the majority of whom were illegal migrants unlawfully working and residing within our nation's borders. Your premise here is faulty.

Chuckest said...

A4 Has his foot in his mouth again.

It would be nice if A4 actually read what my article. Had he read it he would have known that, "During a debate at the Cato Institute the anti-immigration representative, Mark Kikorian said, “Most illegal immigrants work ON THE BOOKS (Emphasis added) They’ve given a fake or a stolen Social Security number…” This means they are paying the same Income Taxes that Joe Legal pays, with no hope of getting a refund check if they overpay. Deal with it.

Chuckest said...

Let me repeat: "It would be nice if A4 actually read my article"

A4 said. "Note to readers: Mr. McGlawn deleted 70% of my response...

I did delete 70% of his/her response, as any editor would have done because it was not a response to the article. A4, this is the way blogs work, The author (me) makes a statement, and the commenter (you) comment on that statement. This is not a platform for you to spew your undocumented anti-immigration views.

If you want to write an article and post it on my blog, you may do so. My only requirement is spelled out at the top Just under Liberty Views.

This is your last chance to comment on what I said about the e-mail entitled Joe Legal vs Jose Illegal.

My article said, "In Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal the premise is INCORRECT, it states that Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table."

[Still quoting from the article] "That is not true most of the time says Mark Kirkorian, the Executive Director of the Center for Immigration Studies [This is an organization that not only opposes illegal immigration they oppose the high level of legal immigration. On their web site they admit that, “The data collected by the Center during the past quarter-century has led many of our researchers to conclude that current, high levels of immigration are making it harder to achieve such important national objectives as better public schools, a cleaner environment, homeland security, and a living wage for every native-born and immigrant worker.”]

[Still quoting from the article] "During a debate at the Cato Institute said, Kikorian says, “Most illegal immigrants work ON THE BOOKS [Let me repeat that, "MOST ILLEGALS WORK ON THE BOOKS.](Emphasis added) They’ve given a fake or a stolen Social Security number…” This means they are paying the same Income Taxes that Joe Legal pays, with no hope of getting a refund check if they overpay.

A4, respond to that fact. Call me a liar, go to the recorded debate, after watching it report to my readers what really happened, and I would be exposed as a fraud.
Conversely, if you go off on another subject, quoting other undocumented statistics then you will be exposed as a fraud.

You can see the debate at http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=7334. I invite you to watch the entire debate, but you can hear the above quote soon after the 45 min. mark.

So when the E-Mail says, “Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.

Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.0 0 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.

That is not true Mark Kirkorian, the Executive Director of the Center for Immigration Studies says, “Most illegal immigrants work ON THE BOOKS (Emphasis added)

Jose Illegal may earn less but working ON THE BOOKS he is subject to the same laws as Joe Legal.

Now A4, please respond to that statement, and that statement alone, or anything you say will be deleted from the Liberty Views Blog.

As for my invitation for you to write an article here are the guidelines,

As the title says, Liberty Views, and we do mean liberty views. Written mostly by the administrator, but we do accept guest authors. The only guidelines is that articles should be liberty oriented and absent the initiation of force. We are new at this and welcome all comments good or bad. If you disagree with something if you give us your e-mail we will try to substantiate our statements. Thank you, Chuck

Chuckest said...

I deleted A4s post. I will include some of his post below.

My default position is generally tolerance for others. I find myself on the horns of a dilemma. I cannot determine whether A4 just wants to make his point so badly that he is purposefully ignoring what I am saying and the purpose of this Joe Legal vs. Jose Illegal article, or if he is just stupid.

A4 said, Mr. McGlawn said, "This means they are paying the same Income Taxes that Joe Legal pays, with no hope of getting a refund check if they overpay"

That is not what I wrote what I wrote is: “"During a debate at the Cato Institute said, [Mark] Kikorian said, “Most illegal immigrants work ON THE BOOKS [Let me repeat that, "MOST ILLEGALS WORK ON THE BOOKS.](Emphasis added) They’ve given a fake or a stolen Social Security number… This means they are paying the same Income Taxes that Joe Legal pays, with no hope of getting a refund check if they overpay.

A4 responded to that statement with, “You are wrong…

Here is where my dilemma arises. Is A4 so stupid that he doesn’t realize that I didn’t make that statement. It was Mark Kirkorian who said most illegals provide the employer with a fake or stolen Social Security number and are working ON THE BOOKS with a fake or stolen SS#. This means the employer treats Jose Illegal the same way he treats Joe Legal.

A4, oblivious (or purposefully ignoring what is written) goes on to say, “The Inspector General of the US Dept of Treasury said that in 2010 a total of $4.2B dollars were paid to ITIN number holders - the large majority of whom are ILLEGAL ALIENS who use such numbers when reporting their taxes - NOT WITH SSN NUMBERS.

Would someone smarter than I please explain to A4 the fault in his premise? I am finished with this Idiot.

Last chance Idiot, respond to the following or go to one of the many anti-illegal immigrant blogs, where you are encouraged to misquote the facts.

Mark Kirkorian, the Executive Director of the Center for Immigration Studies says, “Most illegal immigrants work ON THE BOOKS (Emphasis added)

Jose Illegal working ON THE BOOKS he is subject to the same laws as Joe Legal.

Anonymous said...

Mr. McGlawn,

Why do you continue to avoid the facts?

Your point is that Jose Illegal pays into the system but gets nothing back in return. That is pure BS. Using an ITIN he got back $4.2B in 2010. Also, by inflating the number of exemptions on his W-4 he is able to reduce the amount of withholding to practically $0. You know this very well. Lots of people do it. And you know full well that Jose Illegal uses lot of social services - like free health care in the ER for he and his family. Free education for his family. And a myriad of other services paid for by the American taxpayers. What Jose Illegal pays into the system does not come close to what he takes out.

You really can't be so stupid to not understand these FACTS. I am convinced you are being intentionally ignorant.

No doubt you will delete this comment too, Mr. Censor - even though it goes directly to the heart of the topic under discussion. You want to control this discussion by not allowing the REAL TRUTH from being exposed.

Shame on you - you plastic libertarian! :+(

Chuckest said...

I give up, you have convenced me, you have turned me 180 degrees from my approach to things. Your statements and actions and reactions has me persuaded. You have converted me from having tolerance, and giving folks the benefit of the doubt, but you gentle reader are a complete IDIOT. I am convenced that no matter what I said, no matter what I was trying to do you would continue to bring other issues into the debate that are not being challenged, and try to make them the central issue.

Please, is there any one out there that would like to beat it through this guys thick skull that he is not addressing my statements, and I am not challenging the validity of his/hers.

I am going to leave your post up. I hope someone will take up the challenge that what I am talking about is illegals that are working on the books, and what you are talking about is illegals that have applied for and received an Individual Tax Identification number.

For your own sanity, I suggest that you reread some of your responses to some of my statements.

I am going to wash my hands of you with just three statements. 1:Immigrants Are not a Drag on our Economy. 2: They Do Not Take Our Jobs. and 3: Immigrants do not Systematically Depress the Wages of the Native-Born. That is the only issues on which I will allow you to post.

Anonymous said...

Mr. McGlawn said:

"I am going to wash my hands of you with just three statements. 1:Immigrants Are not a Drag on our Economy. 2: They Do Not Take Our Jobs. and 3: Immigrants do not Systematically Depress the Wages of the Native-Born. That is the only issues on which I will allow you to post"

I respect your decision to allow my prior post to remain intact in its entirety. Thank you for restoring liberty on these boards.

Now, you say illegal immigrants are not a drag on society. Yet you only examine one side of the equation - the plus side. You refuse to examine the other side - the negative side - the amount illegal immigrants consume of taxpayer funded social services, the cost of crime committed by illegal immigrants, to include incarceration costs, and the amount ($4.2B) that illegal migrants with ITIN numbers collect in child tax credits through our tax system. All these, plus more, must be factored into the negative side of the equation to reach a fair and honest conclusion of whether illegal migrants are a gain or drag on our economy. Without examining the negative side you are prompting gimmick accounting. So let's be fair, honest and above board, shall we?

Now, you claim Jose Illegal does not take our jobs. What do you call it then when Jose Illegal works in a construction yard and replaces Bob the American citizen who is unemployed and needs work to feed his family? That is one less job that Bob the American citizen has an opportunity to fill.

Yes, illegal migrants depress wages. Bob the American citizen used to make a living wage in the construction industry as a home builder. His wage was $25/hr. It was enough to provide his family with a middle class lifestyle. Jose the illegal sneaked into the county and unlawfully stole Bob's job and does the same work for $12/hr. That is called wage depression. Now Bob is without a job and must draw unemployment, further taxing the system.

I have countered all three of your positions.

Awaiting your response......

Anonymous said...

You see, the reason I have such a stong opinon on this subject matter is because I cannot comprehend why American citizens would protect illegal migrants at the expense of their brother and sister Americans. We have so many of our fellow countrymen and women who are hurting on the economic front. They cannot find work to survive. Yet there are 10-20 million (possibly more) illegal migrants who unlawfully hold jobs in America that American citizens need. That is deplorable. America does not exist to be Mexico's safety valve. The unemployment rate in Mexico is 4.5%. It is double that in America. If I tried to steal a job in Mexico from a Mexican I would be thrown in jail. Yet the apologists on this side of our border would rather protect foreign lawbreakers and thieves than their own brothers and sisters. I find that so disgraceful. I view it as borderline treason. No wonder our empire is in such steep decline.

Chuckest said...

No A4, it is not me that says immigrants are a NET GAIN to the US economy it is virtually EVERY economist, even the anti-immigration economist. Let me list just a couple: Dr. Benjamin Powell Senior Fellow at The Independent Institute, Associate Professor of Economics at Suffolk University, and President of the Association of Private Enterprise Education. you can see his credentials at http://www.independent.org/aboutus/person_detail.asp?id=1023

In the article, "An Economic Case for Immigration" by Dr. Powell,we find,
"Immigrants boost the overall size of the U.S. economy for the existing native-born population. Free trade in labor frees existing Americans to do what's in their comparative advantage.
How big is the net benefit of immigration to the native-born population? Harvard Economist George Borjas is probably the most established academic critic of immigration. But even he admits that immigrants create net benefits for the native-born and, in the Concise Encyclopedia of Economics, puts this gain at $22 billion a year.2 Using his method of calculation and updating for more recent immigrant flows puts the number at more than $36 billion.

In any event, economists have wide agreement that immigration brings net benefits to the existing native-born population.

Chuckest said...

On September 13, 2010, Bryan Caplan,gave the following speech, "Immigration Restrictions: A Solution in Search of a Problem" at The Future of Freedom Foundation’s “Economic Liberty Lecture Series.” The speech can viewed in its entirety @ http://www.fff.org/comment/com1009f.asp.


Bryan Caplan is Professor of Economics at George Mason University. He has published in the American Economic Review, the Economic Journal, the Journal of Law and Economics, Social Science Quarterly, the Journal of Public Economics, the Southern Economic Journal, Public Choice, and numerous other outlets. His book, The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Polices (2007), was published by Princeton University Press and named "the best political book this year" by the New York Times.

Anonymous said...

Mr. McGlawn said:

"No A4, it is not me that says immigrants are a NET GAIN to the US economy...."

But you are fully endorsing and supporting such a view, sir. Hence, your endorsement is subject to open criticism by those of us who disagree with it. I will not allow you to hide behind the cover of others.

Naturally you are able to find a few agenda driven hacks with fancy titles who claim illegal migrants are good for our economy. In modern America it is commonplace for so-called 'experts' to sell out to the highest bidder and promote one agenda or another. Many economists told us in 2007 that the housing market would continue to appreciate in price since we were living in a "new economy". That faulty position was WIDESPREAD amongst economists even though it defied common sense. Mr. McGlawn. Some, including former Nobel Peace Prize winners, tell us that deficits don't matter and that we need increased deficit spending to solve our economic problems. I can quote so-called 'experts' reknown in the study of economics who say so. Would that make you believe them, Mr. McGlawn?

I have clearly detailed to you - IN TERMS OF COMMON SENSE - why illegal migrants hurt our society - socially and economically. You can freely choose to ignore those FACTS and reference your agenda driven hacks, if you wish to do so. In America you have that choice.

Anonymous said...

Mr. McGlawn said:

"On September 13, 2010, Bryan Caplan,gave the following speech, "Immigration Restrictions: A Solution in Search of a Problem" at The Future of Freedom Foundation’s “Economic Liberty Lecture Series"

Stop hiding behind these agenda driven proselytizers, Mr. McGlawn.

We can still find these so-called 'experts' and 'professionals' telling us that deficits don't matter. Just because they say it - do you automatically believe it? Do you sell your soul to those who defy common sense?

Go back to my previous posts and provide counterarguments to the FACTS that I posted, Mr. McGlawn. Disregard your 'experts' for the time being. Let's discuss the facts, shall we?

Chuckest said...

Here are some "Agenda driven HACKS", and some of their contributions to this field of study.
“The Effect of Immigrants on U.S. Employment and Productivity” by Giovanni Peri an associate professor at the University of California, Davis, and a visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco

He has conducted comprehensive research on immigration. His research covered the effects of immigration on the total output and income of the U.S. economy. He concluded:

Immigrants expand the US economy's productive capacity.
Stimulate investment.
Promote specialization.
Produces efficiency gains.
Boosts income per worker.

At the same time, evidence is scant that immigrants diminish the employment opportunities of U.S.-born workers. Read the Full Results of his research at, http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2010/el2010-26.html


"Why Americans Think (Wrongly) That Illegal Immigrants Hurt the Economy" May 13, 2010 Job insecurity, strapped state budgets, and xenophobia may all play a role. But there’s more to it than that. By Arian Campo-Flores
"At the heart of the debate over illegal immigration lies one key question: are immigrants good or bad for the economy? The American public overwhelmingly thinks they’re bad. In a recent New York Times/CBS News poll, 74 percent of respondents said illegal immigrants weakened the economy, compared to only 17 percent who said they strengthened it. Yet the consensus among most economists is that immigration, both legal and illegal, provides a small net boost to the economy. Immigrants provide cheap labor, lower the prices of everything from produce to new homes, and leave consumers with a little more money in their pockets.Read his full article at http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/05/14/why-americans-think-wrongly-that-illegal-immigrants-hurt-the-economy.html

A4, when he said "Most economist", did he really mean, "most agenda driven hack economist"?

Arian Campo-Flores Became Newsweek's Miami Bureau Chief in July 2002… Most recently, he covered the war in Iraq as an embedded reporter with the Third Infantry Division. He was one of the first Newsweek reporters at the World Trade Center site on Sept. 11, interviewing victims and emergency crews. He graduated summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa from University of California, Berkeley, in 1993 with a B.A. in Development Studies.

There you are, two more “Hacks” that you can try to discredit.

Here are more: According to a study by George Borjas, a Harvard economist, immigration reduced the wages of American high-school dropouts by [ONLY] 9 percent between 1980 and 2000. Not surprisingly, surveys show that those without a high-school diploma tend to oppose illegal immigration most fervently.

Is he talking about A4? Hey A4, are you one of them there high school drop-outs?

More for you to discredit: “Many undocumented workers pay money to the federal government, in the form of Social Security contributions and income taxes, and take less in return, says Gordon Hanson, an economist at the University of California, San Diego.”
Let me decipher that for you lest you misunderstand. When illegals pay more in taxes than they get in return that produces a NET GAIN for the US Economy.

Here is a score card:

People that have studied and know that Immigration is a NET GAN to the US Economy:
Dr. Benjamin Powell George Mason University
Dr. Gordon Hanson economist at the University of California, San Diego
Dr. Giovanni Peri University of California, Davis
Dr. Bryan Caplan George Mason University
Dr. George Borjas Harvard University
Arian Campo-Flores Of Newsweek Magazine

People that think immigration is a NET LOSS to the US Economy:

A4 [Could you list your advanced degrees, and or other qualifications?]

Anonymous said...

Mr. McGlawn,

If you want expert opinons I can post those all day long. Here is one, with the numbers:

The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) wrote in its Feb. 2011 article "The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers" on www.fairus.org:

"Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and local level… The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers is an average amount per native-headed household of $1,117... Education for the children of illegal aliens constitutes the single largest cost to taxpayers, at an annual price tag of nearly $52 billion...

At the federal level, about one-third of outlays are matched by tax collections from illegal aliens. At the state and local level, an average of less than 5 percent of the public costs associated with illegal immigration is recouped through taxes collected from illegal aliens. Most illegal aliens do not pay income taxes. Among those who do, much of the revenues collected are refunded to the illegal aliens when they file tax returns...

With many state budgets in deficit, policymakers have an obligation to look for ways to reduce the fiscal burden of illegal migration. California, facing a budget deficit of $14.4 billion in 2010-2011, is hit with an estimated $21.8 billion in annual expenditures on illegal aliens. New York's $6.8 billion deficit is smaller than its $9.5 billion in yearly illegal alien costs."

Here is another one for you. Mr. McGlawn:

Walter Coffey, author of historical fiction and non-fiction, wrote in his June 17, 2011 article "How Illegal Immigration Harms the Economy":

"People routinely look the other way while employers pay illegal aliens low wages to work grueling hours in unsafe conditions. Some argue that illegals do work that Americans won't do, but the fact is that illegals do work that American's can't do because Americans must adhere to minimum wage and labor laws. Illegals don't have to. This is the 21st century equivalent to slavery.

When cheap labor dominates the market, overall wages naturally go down. When wages go down, American workers are harmed. And when American workers are harmed, the poor are always the first hit. In a free market, helping illegal families invariably harms legal families.

Illegal aliens pay little or no taxes, and they send millions of dollars out of the U.S. to their home country. Illegals are also more likely to use taxpayer-funded social services than citizens. They are entitled to free health care, education and food stamps. Nearly $5 billion per year is spent on illegal aliens.

The Roman Empire based its economy on slave labor, which was one of the key reasons why it fell. This is also one of the main reasons why the South lost the Civil War; relying on slave labor, the South could not match northern industrial and military might. Slave labor weakens nations by reducing exports, hindering technological innovation and turning employers lazy since they are virtually guaranteed profit at low cost. History shows that a national economy based on slave labor, in which a non-taxpaying workforce is supported by a taxpaying workforce, cannot prosper. If left unchecked, the economic consequences of illegal immigration could prove disastrous to America's future."

I have many more like that. Do you want me to inundate you with those expert opinons too?

Why don't we just debate the FACTS instead of ping-ponging expert opinons back and forth, Mr. McGlawn.

I posted many FACTS that you have yet to respond to. Let's stick with the FACTS as they are, OK?

Use your favorite 'expert' witnesses on someone else. Let's discuss the FACTS here.

You have FAILED to address the NEGATIVE side of the equation as I reqeusted.

WHY, Mr. McGlawn? WHY???

Chuckest said...

A4 said, Stop hiding behind these agenda driven proselytizers.

There he goes again, killing the messenger, and not the message

A4, I am a nobody, I am just two clicks above those high school drop-outs.

I would believe in more open borders even if almost all of the economist said it was a net loss to the US Economy. I only quote them to justify my position and to convence you and other readers that liberty, that requires more open borders also produces:

An expanded US economy's productive capacity.

Stimulate investment.

Promote specialization.

Produces efficiency gains.

Boosts income per worker.

I do not need an expert to tell me that when I go from a gardening service that cost me $150.00 per month that uses only native born Americans to a $100.00 per month service that uses only legal immigrants, to $50.00 per month by using so called illegal immigrants.

I did the math, with illegals, I get the same garden service (maybe even better) and I have an additional $100.00 EVERY MONTH to spend on something else. That something else creates work for someone else.

In an attempt to discredit honest qualified economist A4 said, "We can still find these so-called 'experts' and 'professionals' telling us that deficits don't matter." I say to A4 when you can boast that almost all economist and professionals say, "deficits don't matter." then I will use the same common sense that leads me to the $50.00 per month gardening service.

A4 said, "Just because they say it - do you automatically believe it? Do you sell your soul to those who defy common sense?"

I say to A4, You say you are using common sense, and you wind up in the 75% of Americans that are wrong about immigration being a NET GAIN.

A4, nothing positive that I or anyone may say about illegal immigration will change your mind, because you have "drank the kool-ade". What I do ask is that in your next response/comment to this blog, tell us how you, you personally have been harmed by illegal immigration.

A4 said, "Disregard your 'experts' for the time being. Let's discuss the facts, shall we?"

I will withold my reply to that until a future time.

Chuckest said...

A4 said, If you want expert opinions I can post those all day long. Here is one, with the numbers:

The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) wrote in its Feb. 2011 article "The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers" on www.fairus.org:

"Illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers about $113 billion a year at the federal, state and local level… The annual outlay that illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers is an average amount per native-headed household of $1,117... Education for the children of illegal aliens constitutes the single largest cost to taxpayers, at an annual price tag of nearly $52 billion...

I say to A4: Nothing that I may say will change your mind. My comments have only driven you deeper into your basic error. If I explained the flaw in the presentation of FAIR’s numbers, you would not accept my explanation.

I will do it if you insist, but before you insist, tell me how you, you personally have been harmed by illegal immigration.

Anonymous said...

Mr. McGlawn said:

"I will do it if you insist, but before you insist, tell me how you, you personally have been harmed by illegal immigration"

All California taxpaying citizens are harmed by illegal immigration. Last year we collectively spent over $20B to provide social services for these illegal invaders.

For instance, Mr. McGlawn, federal auditors from the Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that in 2009 California jails housed 102,795 illegal invaders and, on average, these illegal invaders had been arrested SEVEN TIMES EACH - for serious crimes other than illegal immigration. Think of the impact that has on our society, Mr. McGlawn! This of the financial and society damage that has on ALL CALIFORNIA CITIZENS!

It costs $55,000 to house one California inmate for one year. 102,795 X $55,000 = $5.7 BILLION dollars for INCARCERATION COSTS ALONE, Mr. McGlawn. That is just ONE number that goes to the negative side of the equation.

My taxes, in part, pay for these horrendous costs, Mr. McGlawn!

Ok, I told you how I am personally harmed.

NOW PLEASE ADDRESS THIS SPECIFIC COST!!!

Anonymous said...

Oh, and Mr. McGlawn, it's the little people citizens of America who take a direct hit from illegal immigration. The high school kid who needs a lawn mowing job to finance his future college education. The college kid who struggles to pay his tuition and needs a job at the local restaurant to help out. The LEGAL immigrant without much education who needs a construction job to feed his family. Let's face it, Mr. McGlawn. Only about 25% of Americans have a college degree. So there are LOTS AND LOTS of little people in our society.

Those are are INDIRECTLY impacted by illegal immigration include those who must pay taxes to provide the social services for illegal migrants. Many of those costs are buried in your property taxes, utility bills, traffic tickets, sales taxes, etc... that you pay without knowing where the money is going.

And then there are the victims of illegal invader crimes - like driving without a license, registration or auto insurance when he plows into you and sends you to the hospital for extensive treatment. Since the illegal invader has nothing to his name - the innocent victim is left holding the bag. This scenario happens thousands of time daily in these United States of America. Innocent American citizens who are victims of illegal invader crimes with NO POSSIBILITY of financial restitution. Innocent victims must pay BILLIONS out of pocket for the crimes of illegal foreigners.

Please respond to these points from a common sense standpoint without quoting a so-called "expert", Mr. McGlawn.

Chuckest said...

A4, I was asking for examples of how you were being personally harmed by illegal immigration.

Because A4, there has been no Income tax increase from the 1980s through 2009. That means no tax increase during the time that all the illegals were migrating to California, no increases during the time all those illegals were pouring into the California being incarcerated at 55,000 each per year. All of those increased costs did not require a tax increase.

Additionally there has been no significant change in the property tax since 1976, and that was Prop 13, a tax cut. So, as all those illegals were poring in sending their kids to tax supported schools the property tax rate has changed only slightly. How were the schools able to keep up with all the excessive cost of teaching illegals without a property tax increase? I do not see how you were personally harmed by illegal immigrants.

Now I do want to explain the flaw in FAIR's numbers, but I want to know how you have been personally harmed by illegal immigrants.

Anonymous said...

"Because A4, there has been no Income tax increase from the 1980s through 2009. That means no tax increase during the time that all the illegals were migrating to California, no increases during the time all those illegals were pouring into the California being incarcerated at 55,000 each per year. All of those increased costs did not require a tax increase"

Don't be silly, Mr. McGlawn. Payments by the citizens come in many forms. Why do you think the State is underwater by BILLIONS of dollars and the Feds are underwater by TRILLIONS of dollars? A borrowed dollar is just as bad as a taxed dollar. In the end, the citizens are responsible for the interest and principle on that debt, Mr. McGlawn. Ever heard of 'bonds' before, Mr. McGlawn? And what about all the add-on fees citizens pay for their utility bills, property tax, etc??? California has one of the highest tax rates in the nation. Businesses are fleeing the state due to these exploitative taxes. So please, Mr. McGlawn. Let's discuss this topic like two informed adults, ok?

As you know, the State and Country has never been in deeper debt, Mr. McGlawn. That is because we must pay for things like social services for illegal foreigners. Is that our only problem? Of course not. But is it a problem and is it costing us over a hundred billion dollars a year? Yes, it certainly is! And don't forget - there are other costs that don't get recorded like lower standard of living (urban blight) and lost opportunties for citizen (inability to find a job since the illegal steal them).

Yes, I have been harmed before. I caught some illegals tagging my fence one day - they were caught - but I had to pay for the repair since they had no assets. As the old saying goes, you can't get blood from a turnip.

Anonymous said...

Btw, Mr. McGlawn. The number of illegal invaders who were incarcerated for serious felonies (that's the only way one goes to a Ca state prison) increased 17% from 2003 to 2009. So the problem is not getting bettter. It's getting worse. I have a proof source to support my claim if you care to see it.

Thank you again for not censoring this important information that goes to the negative side of the equation. This is how people learn about both sides. And once vetted, they can draw their own conclusion. That is liberty at work. This is how America was designed to work. Unfortuately our media has largely been hijacked and it is very difficult to decipher the truth in our modern age.

Chuckest said...

A4, please provide me with a name. It doesn't have to be real, just a name by which you can be identified in a full article that I will be writing. My working title is Chuck Semiinformed vs. Bob Concerned. Or if you want you can give yourself a first and last name. I get final approval, so you might concoct several names in declining desirability.

Anonymous said...

Mr. McGlawn said:

"A4, please provide me with a name"

I will give 3 options. Choose one. If you reject all 3 let me know. I will give you more.

1. Joe Patriot

2. Sam Sovereign

3. Larry Liberty

I will read your article objectively, Mr. McGlawn. If it is credible and addresses BOTH sides of the equation - I will applaud it. Remember, I have mentioned several of the negatives in my previous posts - to include tax benefits provided to illegals, social service costs, criminal justice costs (not just incarceration - but attorney-court costs and police costs too), opportunity costs for American citizens, urban blight costs, etc...

You must include these negatives to arrive at your answer.

Thank you for allowing an open discussion on this important topic and for giving our fellow readers an opportunity to form their opinions based on the FACTS.

Anonymous said...

Mr. McGlawn,

I very much look forward to reading your follow-up article on the topic of illegal immigrants.

The reason I questioned the credibility of your referenced expert sources is because none of them examined the NEGATIVE side of the equation. And that is critical in an objective analysis.

Let's say, for instance, that a man wrote an article on the experience of mainlining Asian white heroin. And in that communication only spoke of the eurphoric sense of well-being associated with the drug. Nowhere in the article was there any mention of the disadvantages of using heroin. Would you consider that a credible piece of work? I certainly wouldn't.

So, please, I urge you to list the NEGATIVE sides to the equation in your forthcoming article, Mr. McGlawn. If you do in an unbiased manner I will give you a standing ovation. However, if I am forced to fill in gaps that you leave out - it would only detract from your credibility.

Good luck. I wish you success.

Anonymous said...

Oh, Mr. McGlawn.

I am not the kind of debater who asks leading questions of my opponents as a ploy to set them up.

No, I am just your old fashioned debater who present the facts and rebuts claims that are not entirely accurate. And, of course, I enjoy filling in the blanks that my opponents would rather avoid.

As a fair minded debater, I wanted to make you aware of recent news so that you do not fall into a trap while writing your new article on illegal immigration. I know that you have stated before that illegal immigration does not affect our domestic unemployment rates. Well, as you might know, the State of Alabama recently enacted immigration reform laws that strictly prohibit companies in that state from hiring illegal foreigners. And in the first month that these new laws have been enforced the unemployment rate for citizens in Alabama dropped 5x's faster than the unemployment rate nationwide. In some counties the unemployment rate dropped nearly a full percentage point.

Here, Mr. McGlawn. Read for yourself:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/21/unemployment-drops-as-alabamas-immigration-reform-enacted/#xdm_e=http%3A%2F%2Fdailycaller.com&xdm_c=default6412&xdm_p=1&

Good luck in your pending article, Mr. McGlawn. I wish you success. I want to help you avoid falling into traps or presenting false arguments as much as I possibly can. I hope this comment helps you.